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Post by Quorthon on Aug 29, 2005 22:57:16 GMT -5
Downfall Drama/World War II War Drama 2004/2005 Color Constantin Films/Sony Pictures MPAA Rating: R Directed by: Oliver Hirschbiegel Germany
I consider “Saving Private Ryan” and “Schindler’s List” to be pretty much the pinnacle of World War II films. Many others that I’ve seen, such as “Windtalkers” and “Enemy at the Gates,” while each great movies in their own right, have never been able to equal the impact and flat-out power of those films. In fact, I believed for a long time that there was likely no war movies, World War II or otherwise, that could match the power of those films—I’ll be the first to admit, however, that my viewing of “Platoon” may need serious refreshing and that I’ve yet to see “Apocalypse Now”. However, in my experience, even the impressive “Full Metal Jacket” fell a little short of the pure visual power of “Saving Private Ryan” or “Schindler’s List.” Well, I just finished a film that has done a remarkable job of proving me wrong.
“DOWNFALL” is based on the true story of the final days of the Third Reich in 1945, with incredible realism and stunning storytelling. In a word, I would actually call this film “riveting.” In fact, I can’t remember the last time I watched a foreign film (American that I am) that so intensely held my attention. At any rate, as I began, it takes place during the final days of WWII on the European front. Hitler has become and aged and weakened old man. The stress of illness, war, and his years in leadership have taken a heavy toll. Here, we have a man with a hunched stature and increasingly obvious palsy. In fact, we have one of the most evil men of the 20th century looking weak, defeated, old, and… incredibly human. We view his paranoia growing as we watch his Generals lose faith. We see German people struggle to maintain their loyalty as they are torn by the will to live and escape the constant shelling of Berlin. We see a man who, through his intense hatred, looks weakened and frustrated that the grand plans he had for Germany and his people, well meaning as they may have been, has led to a no-way-out scenario which only continues to worsen. Much of the film is seemingly based upon historical fact, and especially, personal reports from another person whose story is closely followed in the film: That of Hitler’s personal secretary, Traudl Junge. Much of what we see in this film was taken from her personal accounts of those last dreadful days.
Here’s the breakdown:
The Good: --First off, there was very little about this film not to like: --The acting is brilliantly done, especially by Bruno Ganz—who is frighteningly perfect as Adolf Hitler. --Excellent cinematography and photography—often reminiscent of the brilliant, grittily realistic look “Saving Private Ryan.” --Arguably the highest production value of any foreign film I’ve yet seen. --Incredible scenery and backgrounds. I can’t imagine how this film was made on such a grand scale in tiny, cramped Germany. Even if filmed elsewhere in Europe, I can’t quite imagine where they found these areas, so destroyed and so accurate. --Incredible epic scope. --Among the best sound effects I’ve heard from a foreign film—very realistic. --Several smaller stories are told which intertwine together brilliantly and give an excellent, all-around view of people, beliefs and opinions of many Germans during the war.
Didn’t Hurt It, Didn’t Help: --The music is good and works perfectly, but nothing truly special or different. --This war epic focuses less on graphic violence (though there is plenty) and more on the violent and conflicting personalities. It is then easier to equate this powerful film to “Schindler’s List” than to “Saving Private Ryan” in this way. --Characters often not properly introduced—occasionally confusing trying to follow all the characters.
The Bad: --The only problem with this film is that it’s so well made, directed, filmed, and acted that I found myself feeling sorry for Nazis and even Hitler at times! The human aspect of this man comes through that well! But worry not, for the more sadistic side of his nature rarely fails to come through and keep you shocked and perhaps even, emotionally confused.
The Ugly: --Any time children die.
Memorable Scene: --This was another film with so many memorable scenes it’s hard to pick just one. I’m going to go with any of the number of scenes where you feel the humanity of Adolf Hitler--because they seriously catch you off-guard.
Acting: 10/10 Story: 10/10 Atmosphere: 10/10 Cinematography: 9/10 Character Development: 9/10 Special Effects/Make-up: 10/10 Nudity/Sexuality: 3/10 (very little of either) Violence/Gore: 7/10 (not a “constant battlefield epic” so this is a quantity rating) Dialogue: 9/10 Music: 9/10 Direction: 10/10
Cheesiness: 0/10 Crappiness: 0/10
Overall: 10/10
I’m giving a “10” to this film for it’s overall quality and intense visuals and characters, epic scope, and well, basically everything. I highly recommend this to all fans of War films, especially those of World War II and WWII buffs. All this despite the fact that I believe that “Schindler’s List” may actually be a slightly better and more powerful film. But this is damn close.
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Post by ZapRowsdower on Aug 30, 2005 0:38:03 GMT -5
What makes this a great film is the fact that even though it's German, they made no attempt to justify Hitler's actions. He remained the evil hate-monger we read about in our textbooks. A very dramatic, powerful war epic, and one of my favorites of all time. It's out on DVD now, so rent it. This is gonna be Movie Police-worthy in a couple years.
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Post by Bartwald on Aug 30, 2005 5:07:11 GMT -5
This movie was very controversial in Poland, as some people decided it made Hitler more of a sorry figure than the demonic character they believed he was. Still it was quite a success here.
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Post by Quorthon on Aug 30, 2005 8:40:56 GMT -5
This movie was very controversial in Poland, as some people decided it made Hitler more of a sorry figure than the demonic character they believed he was. Still it was quite a success here. I think that all stems from the fact that you see the human side of someone we're only used to seeing as a raving madman. Have you seen it, Bart. And I agree with Smitty that this should be Movie Police-worthy in a short time. And if he says it, we should all comply. I hear tell that nobody fucks with the Smitty.
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Post by Bartwald on Aug 30, 2005 9:16:04 GMT -5
Haven't seen it yet, no. I may try to get it but no real promises on this one: thanks to too many WWII TV-series in my youth I feel, eh, some kind of Hitler-overload.
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Post by Quorthon on Aug 30, 2005 9:59:11 GMT -5
Haven't seen it yet, no. I may try to get it but no real promises on this one: thanks to too many WWII TV-series in my youth I feel, eh, some kind of Hitler-overload. So did Germany. Oy.
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Post by ZapRowsdower on Aug 30, 2005 10:03:40 GMT -5
And I agree with Smitty that this should be Movie Police-worthy in a short time. And if he says it, we should all comply. I hear tell that nobody fucks with the Smitty. You said it, man. And I do mean NOBODY.
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mabuse
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by mabuse on Sept 4, 2005 13:06:18 GMT -5
Well, you have to view Adolf Hitler as human to truly understand him at-all. He wasn't a tentacled-demonoid, however easy it is to imagine him as being. It's easy to feel-sorry for someone suffering, even if it's Hitler. If one cannot, Hitler wins from the grave. I think he simply hated himself so-much, that he wanted to annihilate as many human-beings as he could. He could no-longer see humanity in them since he had none left in himself. I attribute this to a physically-abusive father, and his experiences in a Men's Hostel in Vienna before WWI. It's not an excuse for him, since there is no-excuse for Hitler, just an explanation. "Untergang/Downfall" is basically flawless in the depictions of the Fall of Berlin, and the facts we know from the Bunker. Joachim Fest's books on the subject were followed closely, you cannot do any better really.
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Post by Quorthon on Sept 9, 2005 9:51:29 GMT -5
Well, you have to view Adolf Hitler as human to truly understand him at-all. He wasn't a tentacled-demonoid, however easy it is to imagine him as being. It's easy to feel-sorry for someone suffering, even if it's Hitler. If one cannot, Hitler wins from the grave. I think he simply hated himself so-much, that he wanted to annihilate as many human-beings as he could. He could no-longer see humanity in them since he had none left in himself. I attribute this to a physically-abusive father, and his experiences in a Men's Hostel in Vienna before WWI. It's not an excuse for him, since there is no-excuse for Hitler, just an explanation. "Untergang/Downfall" is basically flawless in the depictions of the Fall of Berlin, and the facts we know from the Bunker. Joachim Fest's books on the subject were followed closely, you cannot do any better really. I think Hitler was pretty power-hungry, but also that he truly believed he was doing something wonderful for the German people. He just went about it all wrong.
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mabuse
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by mabuse on Sept 9, 2005 16:21:06 GMT -5
I agree in-part, but I think it was basically a mindless will-to-power for Hitler and his lapdogs (we have similar cranks in-office in the USA right-now). They wanted power, period. If the German people failed them in achieving ever-greater power, they were to be annihilated because (in Hitler's Social-Darwinist views) the Slavs were superior. It's my own belief that Hitler hated ALL OF HUMANITY, and wanted to bring-about the murder of as-many human-beings as he could get-away-with. Read anything by Joachim Fest on this, he is considered Germany's expert on the Third Reich. Reading his books is like reading someone brow-beating the Nazis--page-after-page. It's refreshing. It isn't just about the Jews, and we should remember that Hitler's geneology is shadowy, and that he was aware of the fact that he probably had a Jewish-ancestor, like many Europeans (and the Nazi-hierarchy, like Reinhardt Heydrich who DID have a Jewish grandparent).
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Post by Quorthon on Sept 12, 2005 16:34:07 GMT -5
I agree in-part, but I think it was basically a mindless will-to-power for Hitler and his lapdogs (we have similar cranks in-office in the USA right-now). They wanted power, period. If the German people failed them in achieving ever-greater power, they were to be annihilated because (in Hitler's Social-Darwinist views) the Slavs were superior. It's my own belief that Hitler hated ALL OF HUMANITY, and wanted to bring-about the murder of as-many human-beings as he could get-away-with. Read anything by Joachim Fest on this, he is considered Germany's expert on the Third Reich. Reading his books is like reading someone brow-beating the Nazis--page-after-page. It's refreshing. It isn't just about the Jews, and we should remember that Hitler's geneology is shadowy, and that he was aware of the fact that he probably had a Jewish-ancestor, like many Europeans (and the Nazi-hierarchy, like Reinhardt Heydrich who DID have a Jewish grandparent). I don't think the people in charge in America want "power, period." Most leaders go about leading in a way they see fit, with the obvious exception of many of history's worst dictators. Saddam, for example, just wanted power, as did Stalin--who actually led to the murders/deaths of twice as many people as Hitler. And History just glosses over that for some reason--he even had his own agenda against Jews. And unlike Hitler, went about torturing and killing his own people (same goes for Saddam and Pol Pot, as I recall). That's why I think that Hitler, as twisted as it seems, believed that he was doing something to benefit the German people. Just as I think Bush sees that he's doing something positive when we talk about something as touchy as the Iraq War (which, by the way, not to start any fights or anything--I personally had little problem with--good riddance to bad rubbish). A great many Iraqi's voted and are very happy Saddam's gone from power. He's not the best President we've ever had, personally I've referred to him as the "Republican Jimmy Carter" but with a charisma Carter just didn't have. But for as bad as everyone claims he is, you'd think the Democrats could've done a helluva lot better than Jonh "I married money" Kerry. He'd have pulled out of Iraq, gone into North Korea and Iran right off the bat, and Iraq would've fallen into total anarchy--that's if he could've made up his mind about it all. Which, I guess, would actually take a couple years to do... America's just stuck in a "drought of quality Presidential Candidates" since the 90's. Look at the nightmarish, trash-talking, hate-spewing monster Al Gore turned into when he no longer cared about trying to please every opposing special interest group in the country! When left to think for himself, he's fuckin' scary! Referred to Bush as the enemy of America! What happened to, oh, say, Osama Bin Laden? Sorry about the rant (I don't mean anything personal, and hopefully, I don't sound like I do)... I guess there's just so much absolutely pointless anti-Bush retorict going around that it pushed that even-minded centrist in me from a converstaional point straight into a rant. Bill Maher went as far as to blame Hurricaine Katrina on Bush! Yup. He controls the weather, too! He and God really got it goin' on! It's amazing how many brains are just completely shut off these days... (again, not you mabuse, ... oh god I'm a crazy person)
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mabuse
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Posts: 64
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Post by mabuse on Sept 14, 2005 18:19:15 GMT -5
That's OK, but I disagree 100% with you. :0) It a bit odd to think the Bush family are anything but closet-fascists. We now know through the public-record (National Archives) that W's Grandfather supported Nazism's rise though secret-channels, and even until 1951. But pay-no-attention to such unimportant-data. Incidentally: we will be replacing a secular, Stalinist State with an Islamic Theocracy. Yes, you are bit loopy, yes. :0) YOu seem to feel you know what the Iraqi people are thinking--like the "experts" during Vietnam. MOst insurgent probably just see us--accurately--as invaders. You got an WMD to spare? I lost mine... Sorry, it's all about the will-to-power, we're primates. You must not be an "alpha." ;0) I thought my original-argument was more well-reasoned.
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Post by Quorthon on Sept 15, 2005 9:10:03 GMT -5
Just because a grandfather supported fascism doesn't mean the kids do. There are a lot of people in Germany these days who want nothing to do with it, and their grandparents (or great grandparents) were Nazis. Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh both supported the growth of the German Fascist state. In fact, Ford funded over 70% of a fascist newsletter published in the States. That's like saying that I'm a Nazi because my family comes from Germany, and immigrated here between the Wars, and settled in the Midwest--wherein Hitler had a lot of Germans immigrate and settle around the same time in the same region for the purpose of spreading Fascism State-side. I'm not a racist, and neither is my Dad, but my grandparents might be another story--I didn't know them well enough.
I really doubt that Bush, who's appointed more blacks to Goverment positions than any other president, is racist. I know racists--they're not ones to hire people they hate as just a cover--that hate is incredibly strong. That's just popular because of fear-mongering by our constantly degrading Democratic party--they need to start focusing on issues than insults. I'm centrist, myself, but the way the American Democratic party has been behaving the last couple of years is doing little more than convincing me that their people aren't "right for the job." It's immaturity on a grand scale...
I'm personally tired of people complaining about the whole "no WMD's" crap. Just before we went into Iraq, satillite's viewed a mysterious amount of trucks driving from Iraq into Syria--which has been noted as a very possible threat to the civillized world. I'm only annoyed that we haven't properly checked into that. Saddam had those weapons, hell, he proved it by killing tons of his own people with them. And if the Iraqi (under Saddam) army had one real talent the whole world knew about, it was their skill at hiding those weapons--which everyone overlooks so they can feel sorry for one of the modern world's worst dictators. I'm glad he's gone, like I said, good riddance.
But I don't get these comparisons of Bush to being some evil warmonger. Clinton forced troops into Bosnia--and far less good came from that than the Iraq war. Clinton's cowardice in the Somalian "Black Hawk" incident was even more embarrasing. Instead, his cabinet spent time fighting Americans--in Waco and Ruby Ridge--incidents that Timothy McVeigh admitted pushed him to bomb the Federal Building in Oklahoma. But the same people bitching so loudly now about the "unjust Iraq war" were mysteriously quiet back then when it was Clinton fucking up. What gives? People are too focused on supporting or hating based on party allegience and they become completely ignorant of actual issues. For instance, all the Kerry-supporters that hated Bush for the Iraq war, and who bitch about war in general, completely overlooked Kerry saying, "I want to go it alone in North Korea, Iran and reinstate the draft." It's a miracle, with so much ignorance, that China hasn't already taken our place as Super Power.
Bush-bashing is now just popular-culture with everyone jumping on the bandwagon in an attempt to be cool. Bill Maher's "Bush caused hurricaine Katrina" statement is evidence of this. And where was New Orlean's Governor during all this? It was more her (I believe it's a woman) job than Bush's to scramble the National Guard to help. Of course, shooting at the help didn't help anyone out down there anyway.
It's Okay to disagree with me, it's the American way, focusing on disagreements these days rather than agreements--focusing on differences rather than similarities. Sorry again about the rant. I must have a lot to say...
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mabuse
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by mabuse on Sept 15, 2005 18:29:24 GMT -5
You don't have to wear a swastika to be a Nazi--the fruit don't fall far from the tree. Also: I've hated Bush since before he President, when it wasn't "popular." LBJ passed lots of Civil Rights bills, but he still used the word "nigger" in-private, and waged an racist-war. He just had-no-other-choice but to pass the bills. Kerry and Bush were both members (actually still are), and both still support the war in Iraq. Both are very-rich, and I suspect both are taking-orders from those who are unimaginably-rich. Incidentally, I'm German on my mother's side, so that one doesn't float here, either. The fact is he lied in a treasonous-manner, and you are one of the people who gets-fooled all-of-the-time. Sorry, Somalia was a crap-shoot compared to the ongoing disaster that is Iraq. Of-course, none of this will convince you, but I will tell you that you are pretty ignorant on geopolitics. I hate both political-parties, and consider myself somewhat Socialist, with anarchist-tendencies. You make me sad and ashamed I am American (sorry Bart, et. al.). America seems to be the only major threat to the civilized world right-now. Funny, your information has all been disproven for long-time now. Being "centrist" in America is to be far-right compared to the rest-of-the-world. America is barbaric, and we should all be ashamed of this Administration. Never-mind, I shoulda used smaller-words...
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Post by 42ndstreetfreak on Sept 16, 2005 5:36:36 GMT -5
America (and most certainly Bush and his lot) had bad points and dubious policies. But lets stop all this America bashing bullshit. Saddam was a Muslim who murdered countless Muslims. The only people blowing up men, women and children in Iraq now are Muslims. One lot of Muslims has already declared war on another set of Muslims in Iraq and have indeed proceeded to target and murder Muslim women and children. They do not give a shit about their fellow Muslims and never have. IF , once Saddam was gone, the Muslin extremists (Saddam supporters all) let Iraq become the place most people in Iraq wanted therer would be no problem, and no deaths. Afghanistan was a cruel regime and a SPECIFIC terrorist base. It was a legitimate target. It may have been the UK that stood up to the Nazi's and took them on...but it WAS America that swung the outcome when they joined. And they joined for the right reasons against an indefensible, evil Nazi regime. Vietnam may indeed have been a civil war, but that it was a Russian/Communist funded war where atrocities were being carried out by the Communist troops is a fact. Should America have got involved? That's open to debate, but there were good, moral reasons. Unless you like the idea of hardline Communism that is. America was hideously attacked on 9/11. It (as we do now in the UK after being attacked) have every right to fight back and seek justice. End of. Islam has been attacking ther West for centuries, and commiting mass murder and atrocities on it's fellow Muslims for as long. It goes BOTH ways. All this 'The West is evi' bullshit is just that...BULLSHIT. And there is NOT ONE Islamic State you, me or in fact anyone on here would like to live in instead of the UK or America. Remeber that.
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